Are You Ready For Cryptocurrency Taxes Brought To You By Cash Tracks Financial Inc.
How To Deal With Cryptocurrency Tax From Tax Advisor, Marcelino Dodge
Transcript From Podcast On May 20th, 2021
The following material is Part 1 from a podcast that was first published on the Tax Answers Advisor podcast with Marcelino Dodge on May 2021. This material is owned and copywritten by Cash Tracks Financial Inc., an accountant firm in Lamar Colorado.
Marcelino: Welcome to The Tax Answers Advisor. This is Marcelino Dodge slowly climbing the ladder here to show 31 and still, building a little bit I want to give a big shout out to the listeners out around the world something I just never imagined when I start this that I’d have a worldwide audience like the Philippines and Japan. Of course the United States and China it’s just great that there’s so many out there that are interested in these tax topics just, just never imagined it when this journey started there. As topics come up or if you have questions with about anything in the program today. You can find more information about our accountant, tax accountant and tax preparer services on our website at Cash Tracks Financial Inc. in Lamar Colorado. Please be sure to email me at email@example.com or give me a call toll free at 844-394-4287 for national and international calls or 719-336-8739 in the Lamar Colorado area and certainly applies anything we’ve had in the past or anything that we’re discussing today, which is a very hot topic among rather tax areas definitely really big because it’s investing in cryptocurrency.
Are you prepared for the taxes? Well, one thing we’re going to talk about today, for the taxpayer standpoint is the IRS is definitely looking at this and they’re getting even closer at it. And we’re going to talk about cryptocurrency because everybody seems like zoning, some type of coin could be a Bitcoin can be a light coin. There’s a lot of different ways you can buy these. The transactions are very murky in how to do it. And how does that deal with taxes? Well, the way we’re gonna approach this today is we have Amy Wall, an enrolled agent from Tucson, Arizona, who does tax returns for individuals and small businesses, teaches tax classes for the National Association of tax repairs, also known as NATP.
In our area, and I’ve had the privilege of taking some classes from Amy, she’s a beautiful instructor even done some own publishing in the tax pro journal. And even in Walter Clovers, Journal of the Tax Practice and procedures published your own book on virtual tax taxation of virtual currency. And a topic that I’ve had also had a classroom or on divorce and taxes, which you should know before you sign which that’s a very important topic as well at some point to consider. And then even topics for real estate agent. She’s done a book, book on that as well. But cryptocurrency is definitely one of her favorite tax topics, which is why Amy is gonna sit here and visit with us today. And she’s been working on this since 2014. Like imagine that 2014 cryptocurrency was like, like an infant then. But now we got someone who’s I don’t know, I would think at this point just about an expert on it. Amy, well, how are you doing today?
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Amy: I’m good. My husband just handed me a cup of coffee. So things are looking up.
Marcelino: Hey, that’s a great start to the day how just real quickly here his second year in a row, extended tax season did. Did everything survive for you?
Amy: Yeah, it’s, it would be really nice if Congress would stop changing the tax laws in the middle of tax season. That has not made things easy, you know, early March, the IRS or Congress decided that $10,000 of unemployment compensation shouldn’t be taxable. So everything had to kind of shut down. Well, the IRS got their software updated all the Tax Practice, people got their software updated. It’s kind of not fair to change the rules, the middle of the game, but you know, that’s just me complaining.
Marcelino: Yeah, that’s me complaining too, because I had a lot of people whose refunds got delayed.
Amy: Oh, we’re still we still have people who filed back in in mid-March, you haven’t gotten a refund yet. And I keep telling them, it’s, you know, it’s because Congress changes the tax laws, the middle of tax season and getting refunds out is suddenly not on its topic, suddenly getting current on, on tax law, you know, brand new tax laws is the hottest topic, but United States tends to kind of do everything through the tax code to the minister welfare programs to the tax code. We, we do just about everything through the tax code. So that makes it a little challenging.
Marcelino: Yes, yes, I definitely did there. So it’s nice to know that I’m not the only one that’s had refunds taking up to 10 weeks at least.
Amy: Oh, absolutely. We’re all seeing it. And then the other problem with that unemployment compensation thing, and I know that’s not what we’re here to talk about, but the IRS is going to automatically issue refunds if you filed at a time, but your state isn’t so you still have to amend your state Return.
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Marcelino: Wind power depends on the state. Because in the state of Colorado, we have to add a battery to any wind power equipment.
Amy: Here in Arizona. There’s no way I mean, both states they start with the federal adjusted gross income. So they don’t know if the unemployment compensation is already included or not. That’s the problem.
Marcelino: Yeah, that’s, that’s the problem. See, when it’s subtracted on the federal but then Colorado, we got to know tobacco. You got to add this back in on the other addition line. Oh, okay. Yeah, so varies from state to state. It’s just really crazy. How it goes, that’s the fun of tax changes in the middle of tax, tax season. But okay, back to the topic at hand here. Just had to have our little rant there. That’s, that’s nice.
Amy: Yeah, to be done Marcelino, you know, just had to be done.
Marcelino: Oh, I just, it’s nice to be able to sit and talk and get just rant that stuff out as, as professionals at the frustration we go through, so that our clients or the people that listen to this, understand that, you know, you got frustrations, you know, just imagine it on our end as professionals we’re having to deal with you. We know you’re waiting, but it’s like we’re the middleman that’s kind of stuck telling you what’s going on, or trying to anyway.
Amy: Exactly. And we have to deal with it with you on however many hundreds of clients we have. So, so you know, cryptocurrency? Let’s talk about cryptocurrency. Because we saw that on the 2020 tax return. And on the 1040, the famous crypto question at any time during 2020. Did you receive sell, send, exchange, or otherwise acquire any financial interest in any virtual currency? I mean, the IRS is getting pretty serious here.
Marcelino: Yes, they definitely are. In fact, I remember doing my continuing education right at the end of 2020, beginning of 2021. In preparation for this tax season. That was one of the points that was mentioned during those continuing education classes was this question that’s on there all of a sudden, and if you’re, How do you answer the question if maybe you bought some? But you really haven’t. It’s actually very,
Amy: Interesting. Because what if you actually read the question? It says, did you acquire any financial interest? You would think that if you bought some you’d have to say yes, but the IRS actually came out and said, No, if all you did was buy it, you can you can check? No. And I felt like hey, you know, the only language we got here is English. I think you guys read that, you know, create this question in a way that that would be obvious.
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Marcelino: Yes, definitely.
Amy: Is that something you check? No? Yes?
Marcelino: Yes. And I actually I’ve kind of, could have done a better job asking that of my clients this year. I would admit that because it’s even it’s new to us as an accountant and tax preparer as well, so except for you that’s been doing it. But I know, I’m still kind of getting myself up on it there a little bit. So. But I’m working on asking clients more about that as well. I’m probably going to put that at the top of my questionnaire for future years.
Amy: we’ve got it as a standard on our questionnaire because, you know, I have colleagues who just take a look at the person and they check No, and it’s like, you know, you don’t know that I have little lady grandma clients whose grandkids gave them a Bitcoin years ago, and she’s been playing with it ever since. You don’t know, you don’t know, by looking at a client if they have virtual currency or not, especially these days when this seems like pretty much everybody’s jumped on that bandwagon. You can make that assumption.
Marcelino: Oh, yeah. And that’s something that we got to be careful about. And certainly, taxpayers need to make sure they’re at least telling their tax professional. Yes, I did buy. Yes. It’s definitely good there. So let’s see exactly more exactly what crypto currency is, at least we know, it’s a weird thing. And it isn’t money. So basically, what is it?
Amy: It’s really fascinating. And that’s why I’m so interested in it. I actually have a second major in economics and an MBA. So I’m fascinated by, you know, just these monetary issues. The original idea behind cryptocurrency, which you know, it’s kind of the term is used synonymously with virtual currency, so people shouldn’t get too hung up on is there a difference? There? There is technically, but for all intents and purposes, there isn’t. And the IRS uses those terms synonymously as well. So virtual currency equals cryptocurrency. And the fun thing about it is it was originally intended to be an alternative to paying through third parties. The idea was, why are we spending literally billions of dollars on Pay Pal, on banks, on fees on credit cards on all these things that don’t do a lot more than transfer money from one person to another? So the idea was, what if we didn’t need those? So all these software geniuses started working on it, and I would not even begin to pretend to understand the software.
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Amy: I don’t need to this is how blockchain was created. The idea of blockchain is that it’s a 100% secure way of transferring value from one account to another. That’s the concept that was the idea. And I had a lot of clients in the early days, who were what I call true believers of crypto, they really believed in it and they use their cryptocurrency for everything and you know, they went to buy cup of coffee at Starbucks and they whip out their special crypto $2 debit card and pay with essentially with whatever with Bitcoin with whatever virtual currency they were holding. And then this debit card would automatically convert it to dollars for the vendors. So the vendor didn’t have to take crypto, it was being paid in crypto, but it was invisible to the, to the vendor. The problem came in, when the IRS back in 2014 said, you know what, bad news guys, we’re going to consider cryptocurrencies property. And that meant that every time this guy whips out his, his special debit card to buy Starbucks, he has sold a piece of property and it has to be accounted for in his tax return. And that was a genuine bummer. For the true believers of cryptocurrency.
Marcelino: That definitely, I can see where that would be a bummer, because then it’s like, well, wait a minute, we’re trying to do something or try to make it a little easier. But then, like anything else, the IRS has to find a way to tax it.
Amy: Well the problem came and the reason the IRS finally got serious in in 2014 is the first time that there was any tax law published on cryptocurrency was we had a tax notice in 2014. And that’s when they set out the word that you know, this is this is going to be treated as property. Now the problem for the IRS or you know, in fairness, they’re doing the best they can just like the rest of us boards focus is, you know, what else could it have been? It’s not currency, it’s not fit currency for any country. So a It’s not currency. Okay, so be it’s not stock because there’s no ownership portion. It’s not a bond because there isn’t a loan. You know, what, what else wasn’t there, they were kind of out of choices.
There’s this kind of strange animal and they look at it and go, well, it’s got four legs and a tail and a head. So I guess it’s a horse. Well, it’s not really a horse, it’s something else, but they’re out of choices. They’ve already, you know, gone through all the options, and all this left is property. But you know, was this, this became a huge problem for people who were using crypto. And it’s become a huge problem for the people who are holding crypto now as an investment because suddenly out of nowhere, you know, instead of this becoming a method of payment, it became an investment and suddenly everybody in their brother is buying coins of some kind. I say Bitcoin because it’s easy, it’s the best known coin. But all these alt coins you know, every, every other coin can be lumped into the, into the term alt coins, Bitcoin and all the alt coins are suddenly now being sold and traded and blah, blah, blah. And every time you make a sale or a trade, it’s a taxable event. There is no like kind exchange for cryptocurrency. It’s a sale of property and a purchase of a new property every time and if you do that 100 times a day, how do you track it?
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Marcelino: It sounds I mean, in theory, at least in the way that you’re talking about it, it sounds like some people are like day trading stocks, but instead of day trading stocks, they’re like, they’re doing it with virtual currency.
Amy: Marcelino, it’s 100%. Right? There are people who are day trading crypto, they are they are all day long. And then they come to taxes. And one of my first crypto clients showed up with like 75 pages of a list of CSV files that just showed this was sold and this was purchased, this was sold and this was purchased this is and he said what would you what would you cost? Would it cost for you to turn this into a tax return for me? I said $10 million? Nobody could do this. You know because, because Bitcoin is divisible down to eight decimals. It’s not like you bought a Bitcoin and you sold a Bitcoin you might have bought a Bitcoin but then you sold point A 11234567 Bitcoin and then you traded point oh 2345678 Bitcoin for some Lite coin I mean, who could track this?
Marcelino: It sounds like it sounds like you’re trading the old math symbol pi. That’s what it sounds like. You’re trading a bunch of, of that at least that’s what may come to my mind as you started all the decimal points back in there with it.
Amy: There are some virtual currencies are divisible down to 18 decimal, so make sure Oh, my goodness. Yeah, so people were walking into a cash repair guy. Okay, here’s kind of a list of what I did in the tax repairs are looking at it in despair going on, you know, I have no, I have no clue in God’s green earth what to do? Just so the answer. The happy answer to this is we have these conversion platforms, we have people who are way smarter than me who’ve designed software that can actually take the files directly from an exchange and convert it into an 8949 and thus our lives are saved right?
Marcelino: Yes. I’ve seen a few things but not nowhere near on that level. But I’m, I’m grateful there’s software at least there’s a software that can convert it for us. That’s yeah, that’s gonna be so needed.
Amy: Platforms. And people say to me, which one do you recommend and I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t dream of recommending one because I don’t want to be held responsible for the data, right? Yes. Because there’s, there’s court cases in our futures, just the question of when. So I tell them, you know, they’re, they’re really cheap, use two or three, see which one seems right to you, you’re the one who did this. And you know, that’s the numbers that we’ll use. And it’s, you know, it at the end of the day, it’s as simple as that. Now, the other thing that we have that comes in is there’s other activities involved with crypto, other than buying and selling there are these things called Forks. And what a fork is, is at some point, there’s a software change that actually creates two coins moving forward. So a literally a fork in the road.
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Amy: And what happens is that very often, holder of the old currency is then given some amount of the new currency. And for years and years and years after the notice came out in 2014, from the IRS, people were asking, well, so this forked income that I got this fork coin, this bitcoin cash that I got in 2018, what do I do with it? You know, is it taxable? Is it taxable when I get it? Is it taxable? When I sell it with the basis of zero? What do I do? And literally, there was five years of silence from the IRS between 2014, literally five years. And then finally, in 2019, they released a revenue ruling where they said, and it addressed one topic and one topic only, which was airdrops and forks.
And they said, oh, yeah, by the way, did we forget to mention that when you receive for currency, it’s ordinary income as of that date, fair market value as of the date and time you had access to it. And an airdrop is a similar thing. An Airdrop is a marketing stunt, someone’s creating a new coin. And they’ll send out some of this new coin to pretty much anybody who’s got a wallet on certain exchanges. And people who are serious in crypto, they get this Airdrop stuff constantly. So ordinary income, fair market value as of the date and time now happily, most of this stuff. That’s, that’s, that’s air dropped in, it’s not worth anything at that time. But then we have to remember moving forward that it has a basis of zero.
Marcelino: Now, just a little bit back. Right? Yeah, the whole basis is zero is always a great place to start. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. But one thing I wanted to ask you about the forks is that it’s making when you’re describing about the forks, but that makes me think about his little bit about when a stock splits. And you end up having more shares. I mean, that may not be similar. I don’t know that. That’s but that’s what it makes me think of, because there’s they make, there’s some type of change.
Amy: That approach that a lot of people were taking in between 2014 and 2019. And trying to figure out what would be the right way to tax this fork income. And some people were doing that they were splitting the original coins basis in between the two different coins. So you know, that was one way of dealing with it. But it’s a little bit different than a stock split. You’re not getting more shares of the same stock, you’d be getting shares of a different stock, right? Your stock had babies, you know, and suddenly you’re like, whoa, whoa, what’s this? But you know, the IRS put it all to bed and said, No, that’s ordinary income. The other thing that people can walk in with is, is virtual currency that they’ve earned, that they’ve actually you know, they’ve gotten paid their miners, they’ve mined cryptocurrency more, they work for some overseas company, typically, it’s an overseas company, and they’ve gotten paid in virtual currency. And it’s a big shock to them to realize that you now have to pay self-employment tax on, on that income. That’s, that’s earned income.
Marcelino: Yes. And that would apply like, well, wouldn’t it for like those who some, maybe an overseas company to get that, or some people I know, will go in and like, I don’t know, build these powerful systems, and start mining them themselves in this room where they set up right, start mining out the coins, to get them.
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Amy: Right. That’s, that’s earned income all the way.
Marcelino: Now, would they get since they spent some I mean, would there be some it’s earned income, but would there be like some type of like expense involved because they spent all of this like even if it’s capitalized over time, for expensive put into setting up the dating that data mining?
Amy: Absolutely, absolutely all that equipment that they had to buy, and it’s expensive stuff. You know, that that would all be an expense, and would as a tax repair. The other thing you have to remember to do is say, did you have any of these expenses in crypto because it’s really fascinating, a lot of these guys, now there are some crypto clients I have who know more, you know, they know a ton about taxes because all their, their assets are tied up in crypto, so they’re really on the ball. But for most people, it’s happened to me several times where I’m talking to a miner. And you know, we’ve added up how much he got and what the fair market value was in the day. We’ve got $1 value. And I say, you know, by the way, did you have any expenses and it goes yeah, you know, I bought this computer was $1,000 Great, we subtract the $1,000 Get ready to button it all up. And then it turns out that he actually bought that computer with cryptocurrency. So now we have a sale of cryptocurrency. So then, essentially, the IRS, he sold crypto, he bought a computer. So now that has to go on to Schedule D, right.
Marcelino: So when we do the mining though, is that like a Schedule C? Or is it itself employment? For our audience out there, if you have questions about cryptocurrency and your taxes, we are a full service accountant firm in Lamar Colorado. We provide accountant services, tax preparation, and tax accounting for individuals, small businesses and large corporations in Lamar CO and throughout the entire United States.
Amy: Schedule C, and I put in business code 999999. Because what else is there to do? Mining and the business code list tries? I might. So yeah, absolutely. It’s treated just like a normal business. And then every time if you have a client who comes in with mining income, you have to absolutely have to say, what would you do with the rest of the crypto would you do with this crypto when you got it because most of the time, it’s not sitting in their in their wallet quietly, they’ve cashed it in or they bought stuff with it. So someone comes in and they say all I did was mine crypto. And I think now it’s just about being true or somewhere between slim and zero, it does something with that crypto, you’re living on it, or you know, you’ve traded, you’ve done something with it. So these crypto clients, it often can get pretty complicated.
Marcelino: So we have a piece of property defined by the IRS and they are kind of doing who knows what with it there may be receiving it or maybe they’re buying it. So there’s a whole big it’s a whole? I don’t know, just, just big picture there that you got to try to understand exactly. Or help our client to try to understand what exactly are you doing? Because this is a home? Because it’s a whole new animal? Are you? I mean, are you trying to make money with it? Are you trying to invest it? Are you trying to buy stuff with it? I mean, it’s, it’s a whole interview in itself just to understand what’s going on with, with the crypto? Maybe that’s what they’re doing? Maybe that’s what their actual profession is you have some that just do like, that’s all they do.
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Amy: I haven’t had anyone yet that that’s all they did. It was usually you know, usually like a software engineer or something that you know, bad down in his basement. He’s, He’s set up a, you know, a mining situation. But actually in my office, we have a whole separate questionnaire that on our on our original questionnaire, we have them check yes or no, you know, did you have any virtual currency activity? And if they check, yes, basically, we print out the crypto question. If they check, yes, we immediately whip out our virtual currency questionnaire, which drills down, you know, did you earn it? Did you sell? Did you buy? Did you inherit? Did you donate? Did you gift did you, you know, all these different things that people could be doing with virtual currency.
It’s a whole separate Yeah, it’s like a whole separate interview. And often, they don’t even know to check the right boxes. You know, someone comes in and they say, you know, I participated in an initial coin offering, but that’s all I did. That’s not all you did. Because to participate in an ICO, you had to use existing cryptocurrency, you don’t buy him with dollars, you buy him with, you know, Bitcoin or Lite coin, or whatever, all coins. So you sold that. So if you participated in an ICO, you also had a sale of virtual currency. They don’t necessarily realize that, you know, we have to lead them through it. They don’t always know.
Marcelino: And because they’re moving it so fast, it, it stays basically as ordinary income because it’s like a short term capital gain or tax like ordinary income. So unless they actually, actually do hold it, which I don’t know how many of those you actually encountered actually do hold it so that it qualifies for long term rates. It’s, it’s a constant, it’s just regular taxes pretty much.
Amy: Most of the time, it’s short term. Most of the time is short term. But I’ll tell you, this is this is just a story. This is this is something that actually happened to me, okay. This past couple months ago, I got a call from a potential new client, who had just made $5 million on long term gains on Bitcoin. Oh, my goodness. And yeah, the story is, this is great. And this is what I love about crypto has to just get the best stories. This guy bought crypto back in 2011 for about a penny per Bitcoin. Oh, wow. But at first, when, when it first came into existence, practically this guy buys 50 Bitcoins, okay? And he stores the keys rather than keep it on a wallet.
Because you know, you don’t trust your exchanges, exchanges get hacked all the time, stores the keys on his computer. And I said to me, I said, well, how did you resist selling this stuff in 2018 when it went to like $20,000? And he said, I couldn’t find it. He said I wanted to sell it. And I searched through my hard drive and I couldn’t find the keys. So I assumed that I had simply, you know, it was on the old computer and I got rid of it and oh god, you know, now I feel stupid and but, but that’s life. I said well, then what happened? He said Well, early this year, I went to buy some Doge-coin and I went to store on my hard drive and then I found the keys for the Bitcoin. So when Bitcoin hit $50,000 here’s this guy selling us Bitcoin. Oh my. Do you love that?
Marcelino: Wow, that I love that. That’s just amazing.
Amy: Yeah, so guess what, long term?
Marcelino: Long term? Long term? Yeah, tight long term rates and everything good, good for him?
Amy: Yeah, yeah, he’s a happy guy. I said, did you quit your job? Like, you mean? He goes, No, I love my work. Like, oh, this is, this is amazing. So you know, this guy was just destined to be a millionaire? Just a question how to go about it, I guess. So you got to love virtual currency, because you just, just get these crazy stories. So yeah, some people have long term capital gains. But at this point, it’s more by accident. Because, you know, it’s, it’s really hard to resist selling when you’ve already, you know, multiplied your original investment times 10, or whatever, right?
Marcelino: Or even, or even if I was just looking at, for example, like even like, Lite-coin how its was like, I don’t know, like 50 bucks a coin a few months ago, and now it’s hovering between 200 & 300?
Amy: Yes. And the big question, of course, is, is this a bubble? Yeah. Yeah. Because is there really that kind of value in this? You know, it’s a math construct, it’s just sitting there being a math construct, and we’re paying all this money for it. So it’s not like you’re buying a share of ownership, you know, what are you actually buying? And that’s, that’s the question that nobody kind of wants to ask, what are you actually buying? But you know, as long as someone can make money on it, or thinks they can make money on it, they’re, they’re gonna buy it.
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So we as tax professionals have to figure out, how do I tease this out? How do I handle this? Because it’s not going away? How do I handle this in my office? How do I make sure I’m filing properly? How do I make sure I’m keeping myself in my client out of trouble? So, you know, people can help us and I tell my clients, stick with exchanges that are supported by these conversion platforms. Don’t go crazy. Don’t go put your money in exchanges that you then can’t, you know, can’t track your transactions, because that doesn’t help anybody.
Marcelino: Yes, yes, we definitely want to want to make sure we’re, we’re trying to help people, which is the whole goal of this program is to is to discuss subjects like this to bring it to light because they I mean, you’re dealing with a group and you’ve got a good, good group of people you’re working with and training them, but yet, there’s a lot of people who are still playing with cryptocurrency going around buying selling. And they’re just thinking, hey, I’m going around here, I’m not gonna pay any taxes on this. I can only imagine how many people are out there doing that.
Amy: I’ve had people tell me outright, that you know, they think it’s absolutely wrong that the IRS is collecting taxes on cryptocurrency income, and they don’t plan to pay any so it there’s no doubt the IRS is right, when they suspect that there’s a lot of tax fraud going on with cryptocurrencies, they’re 100% Correct. There’s just no doubt about it.
Marcelino: We’re going to expand on this cryptocurrency and talk about some of these enforcement efforts, the IRS that we want to make people aware of that will affect them. And they just got to be aware that the IRS isn’t gonna let, let you get away with this forever. I mean, it’s like there’s things that get on the radar and right now, this is one of those things that’s on the radar. So we’re gonna come back in just a couple minutes here. This is Marcelino Dodge on The Voice America Business Channel on The Tax Answers Advisor.
Marcelino: We’re speaking with Amy Wall regarding cryptocurrency and how the IRS is ready for it, are you if you have any questions about anything on today’s or any prior program, please give me a call toll free at 844-394-4287 for national and international calls or 719-336-8739 in the Lamar Colorado love to have a discussion with you about any of these matters or even have a free mutual exploration meeting as to whether working with you through such matters as this or maybe other, other challenges you may have tax wise because our goal as tax professionals is to get you every break within the law so that you pay as little tax as possible. So we’re gonna come back here with Amy. And we’ve talked about a whole slew of stuff already regarding cryptocurrency and trading. One thing you did mention here a little bit, we talked a little bit about how sometimes you’ll trade maybe one cryptocurrency for another cryptocurrency there, Is that a tax free exchange, some people apparently think so?
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